Well, we’re all going to get a vote soon. I have to say I’m divided on the subject. Having lived in France for a long time I feel quite European (though I can tell you, most of the French people I know don’t feel European, they feel French) and from a trade point of view I am quite sure we’d be subject to all the alleged red tape which apparently drives everyone mad now. So economically we are probably as well staying in. But, but… I do really resent the way the EU behaves. The Strasbourg bollocks. The financial corruption. The blatant politicing amongst the big players. The busy body legislation (iPod volume limiters etc). And, TBH, the legal constraints about who we can and can’t allow to remain in the country. I am a probable Yes, but have No sympathies and am looking forward to each side making the case. So far, and to his credit, only Nick Clegg has tried and got a grandstanding roasting from Farage for his trouble.
What do you think?
Leedsboy says
I think it’s pretty simple really. I am English and I have a UK passport. I am also a European. The simplicity to me is that people are better working within a community than outside of it. Whilst there may be corruption in Europe, there sure as hell is corruption in the UK as well.
The logic of leaving the EU seems to be that Johnny Foreigner is taking the piss out of us. With very little evidence of it other than, perhaps, not liking the position some people take on some issues.
I really hope we don’t vote to leave.
ianess says
As regards corruption, a quick look at Transparency International results for 2014 reveals that the UK was rated at number 14 for perceived public sector corruption. Italy and Greece were tied with Bulgaria for 69th position.
Bingo Little says
I regularly go to Italy for work. Every time I’m there, people speak quite openly about the corruption and fecklessness endemic in Italian industry.
ianess says
I’ve long been of the opinion that the entire country should be quarantined.
Bingo Little says
We should seriously consider adding that proposal as a rider to the referendum.
Gary says
There are some areas where, frankly, Britain should envy Italy (alcohol consumption, anti-social behaviour, family) but there’s no denying it is hugely corrupt and inefficient.
Leedsboy says
Where were Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden and The Netherlands in the list?
ianess says
Since you appear unable to look it up on your ownsome:-
12th; France – a shameful 26th; 1st; 4th and 8th. Unsurprising results for the Northern European states.
Here’s a couple extra that you, unsurprisingly, didn’t ask for – Spain 37th and Portugal 31st. I haven’t even bothered adding the placings for the paragons of virtue from the former Eastern bloc.
The amount of corrupt practices that both Italy and Greece have indulged themselves in within the EU is a matter of record.
So, no real meaningful equivalence there between the Northern European states and the Southern European ones. Unfortunately, when one mixes shit with vanilla ice cream, one abiding flavour remains.
ianess says
Forgot to add that France is tied with Qatar.
Kaisfatdad says
Here’s the list. New Zealand and Scandinavia doing rather well.
https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results
Leedsboy says
So all the European countries are in the top half. And half the top 10 are EU countries. It’s a not bad score I’d say.
Bingo Little says
Wait… which country mixes shit with vanilla ice cream?
ianess says
Probably the Italians. I don’t trust these bastards.
Bingo Little says
Best not to even ask what’s in the Tutti Frutti.
Leedsboy says
That would be Belgium. It’s not all chocolate you know.
DogFacedBoy says
No it’s waffles too (where’s my fucking Bugle?)
Leedsboy says
I was busy at work so thanks for looking that up.
My point wasn’t that to pretend that the others were good – more that of course you can pick some shitty scores to support one argument in the same way that I could pick some good ones to support the other argument.
In a nutshell, this is the EU – a mixed bag of nations, cultures and ways of getting things done. I like some of the stuff i see in other countries but not all of it. On the whole, being in it has more potential for good than being out of it so I’m for staying. But to leave because some countries aren’t as good as us at being honest/not being caught doesn’t seem right to me.
dai says
Won’t have a vote, but I hope you all vote to stay in. Freedom to live and work anywhere in the EU is a wonderful thing.
Vulpes Vulpes says
I’m for staying in. Probably. Lots of reasons, but just spiting some of the nasty little men who methinks bleat too loudly is enough for now.
What I really want is a clear setting out of the pros and cons that gives a factual analysis of the cons (rather than a prejudicial justification of some grumpy libertarian position) and a factual analysis of the pros (rather than a vague happy-clappy lets-all-be-european-pals and compete on the world’s stage glibfest).
I don’t expect to receive either of these analyses from our current shower of politicians, so I’ll be keen to have serious commentators pointed out to me. I fully expect to learn more through my own research, aided by help from contributors to this blog, than I will by reading the press or watching the TV, before I make a final, final, cross-in-the-box judgement.
Kid Dynamite says
Up arrow. Pretty much sums my thoughts – I’m instinctively a yes, but when I analyse why, it’s not founded on a hell of a lot.
Jackthebiscuit says
My inclination is to stay in, essentially, like Twang;s OP, I am a yes, with no inclinations (Basically I am a fence sitting bastard).
I dont know how true it is, (or just a europhobic urban myth), but things like the accounts/audit not being signed off for years on end strike me as highlighting the whole shoddy enterprise for what it is, a giant, snout in the trough, all on expenses jolly for failed/ also ran politicians.
ianess says
No myth. I attended a conference a few years ago where the individual who had (admirably) been resolute in refusing to sign off the accounts gave many hair-raising tales of the state of the EU finances.
Rigid Digit says
I believe there is greater power and prosperity in a United Europe.
Yes, EU bollocky interpretations are an easy target, but there is some sense in their tone/suggestion. And I believe it is all for “the greater good”
Stay in – Industry, Import/Export, Freedom of Movement, Belgian Beer – these are all good things.
Not wholly convinced by a single currency, though – but it works through mainland Europe, so why not in the UK? (yes, there are economic considerations that I don’t understand, but it could work.)
Vim Fuego says
Really? You think the single currency works?
Also, do you think that there would be no more Belgian beer if we leave the EU? Or French wine? Or German cars? Or Danish porn?
ianess says
If the introduction of the Euro is regarded as a success, I’m terrified by what would constitute a failure.
Gatz says
Instinctively I’m for staying in (and I wouldn’t want to be associated with UKIP and the people who write comments on articles in The Telegraph; the best weapon for the in-vote lobby is Farage.). Like Jackthebiscuit I’m concerned about the mess which the EU seems to at a central government level, and I can’t rule out voting against membership after more reading, though I would be surprised given my instincts.
Gary says
As someone living in Italy I tend to think Britain its a little shafted by the EU because of its culture’s innate sense of fair play and equal rights. Freedom to work anywhere in the EU? Good luck getting a job in Italy as a foreigner! Particularly in the public sector, where an Italian qualification is a basic requirement. (I work in one of the few jobs open to foreigners in the public sector and have been fighting for years in court to get the same salary and rights as my Italian colleagues.) As I understand it, Britain is obliged to offer the same unemployment/low earnings benefits to EU citizens as it does to its own citizens. I have Italian friends claiming jobseekers allowance in London. Try getting any benefits out of the Italian system as a foreigner! They rarely give anything to Italian nationals. Italy (its people and media) loudly bleats a constant pro- EU rhetoric, but in reality it is the country with the highest number of prosecutions for contravening EU laws. I’m not sure Britain would be better off outside of the EU, but I do suspect that the EU would be better off if Italy (and Greece) weren’t in it.
Tiggerlion says
I’m a stay-in man.
The rule change I would make with regard to EU immigrants is that the immigrant is entitled to the benefits applicable in their original country. I expect the UK to empty quite quickly as we all seek the sun with all our benefit entitlements!
Gary says
“The rule change I would make with regard to EU immigrants is that the immigrant is entitled to the benefits applicable in their original country.”
I agree with this 100%. I can’t understand why it is not the case. It’s so completely logical.
Uncle Wheaty says
Me too.
Bring that in and the whole situation will change.
davebigpicture says
I think I’m right in saying that it used to be the case. In the 90s I knew a German who claimed they were entitled to unemployment benefit at the generous rates Germany then paid.
Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken.
Tiggerlion says
The other rule I’d apply is that benefits are only paid to residents of this country. This would stop child benefit being paid by us to foreign nationals not even living in the UK, for example.
Twang says
France too. You won’t get jack out of the French state if you aren’t French. Also nothing whatsoever is translated, on the basis that if you want to live there you have to speak French and if you can’t, tough. Of course theoretically it is possible but in reality the red tape mud sucks everyone but the hardiest down. Much as I loved France, living there made me appreciate what a brilliant place the UK is to live.
dai says
“If you want to live there you have to speak French”. Sounds fair enough to me.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
Can’t agree, Twang. Yes French bureaucracy and its petty bureaucrats are maddening but although any English documents always need a certified translation more and more organisations have English speaking sections.
It is also now very easy to enter the French system (once you accept every form needs to be filled out at least three times) and social benefits etc are getting more and more accessible.
Twang says
I agree too Dai. I learned it! But I know for a fact if you rock up, unsupported by a company, it is a rough old ride compared to here where everything is translated into the multiple languages of the local community.
dai says
Good for you.
Does the UK have an official language? Serious question * Clearly the official language in France is French, there is possibly a level of insecurity about losing the language which I have experienced in a big way in Quebec, there no English can be seen outside, even Stop signs say “arrêt”.
* I am currently doing a UK passport renewal, any documents accompanying it must be in either English or Welsh! Anything else needs to be officially translated.
Black Celebration says
I thought I read somewhere that The UK does not have official languages. It’s the same wonderful conceit that gives us things like the British Open being just The Open and our stamps not having UK or GB on them.
We really shouldn’t have put that star on the England football shirt either. We should be above all that.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
I am very conscious that down here large swathes of the ex-pat community (Brits,Swedes, Canucks etc) get by with little more than basic French: Shop in supermarkets, use the ATM, watch your own country’s telly – who needs French?This honestly doesn’t seem to bother the locals (like what I am sure it would do in Norfolk or Derbyshire) who seem to adopt an attitude of “these fools buy our old houses whilst we live in our centrally heated and air conditioned new-builds and they spend a lot of time in our cafes and bars and actually fish & chips are rather good”.
There are a lot of well-off retired Brits here who are horrified re the thought of the UK leaving the EU. I’m betting most of these fuckers would think opposite if they were still living in the Home Counties
Twang says
Tell me about it, I worked with a load of Brits who lived in St Germaine en Laye with the English school, English club “with English beer and English bar maids!!!” etc. I lived in Paris and had a circle of friends like the League of Nations, many of whom I am still in touch with.
dai says
Don’t you mean English beer with Polish bar maids? (see what I did there?)
dai says
Some of the Canucks probably speak French!
Bingo Little says
Eh? Why wouldn’t we put the star on the England shirt? We earned it by winning a World Cup, and most other national teams who’ve won one or more do likewise.
Black Celebration says
Because putting a star on the shirt to signify a World Cup win is an affectation introduced relatively recently. It’s vulgar.
Bingo Little says
It was invented by Brazil in 1970, which is admittedly “recently” in Afterword terms.
If it was good enough for that 1970 Brazil team, it’s good enough for me.
johnw says
I thought the deal was that the British invented stamps so we make the rules. The same is true for the Internet where the US doesn’t need to put their name on their main (.com) top level domain. Seems fair enough to me.
SteveT says
Was a definite yes, still am a probable yes but with a few reservations creeping in. Definitely against greater integration so as long as the rest of there EU accepts that we will not become part of the bureaucracy that they yearn for that’s fine. My gut feeling is that Cameron is not pushing hard enough to get the concessions we need. Remember as the second biggest net contributor to their annual funding that it would be more disastrous for them if we leave than it would us.
Fin59 says
I used to be unequivocally pro.
Mainly as I was unequivocally anti those who were unequivocally anti. The Tory Rump, Stakhanovite dunderheads and purple nosed pub bores.
i don’t know what’s happened, And I don’t like myself for thinking some of the things I seem to think now.
We seem disenfranchised, not empowered. Disintermediated, not unencumbered. Losing our difference in a valueless muddle.
The rush to expand membership a symptom of corporatist megalomania rather than an urge to increase the frontiers of freedom.
The selling of uniqueness for a pitiful homogeneity, driven by a clueless half cock capitalism.
Unable to help those we must. Having to help those who seek mainly to help themselves.
The primary motive to stay in is inertia. All just too much effort to extricate ourselves. This loveless. lifeless union, plodding and fractious and eternal.
Call me equivocal.
Twang says
Voting In because of some vague idea of what people who vote Out are like is the worst reason. We should all vote based on proper facts and our assessment of them. The problem for me is no one is prepared to say what is good about being in, beyond trivia such as being able to travel ( and that is getting harder by the day).
ianess says
Wholly agree. Find it dismal reading when some commenters can only stake out a position based on their virtue-signalling antipathy to UKIP. Personally, I’ve been rather dismayed in the past few years by the undemocratic nature of the EU, the ever increasing loss of national sovereignty, the predominance of Germany and the steady increase in powers exercised by its top bureaucrats.
mikethep says
Well I walked right into that one, didn’t I? Virtue-signalling is the new bien-pensant, it seems. In my worthless opinion, antipathy to UKIP is the only honourable course for anybody with a couple of brain cells to rub together, and no virtue-signalling signaller will persuade me otherwise.
mikethep says
You’re absolutely right, @twang, but the fact remains that I would rather gnaw my leg off than find myself voting on the same side as UKIP and all the rest. What remains of my socialism is, I fear, based on not-this and not-that. Reprehensible, but there it is.
FWIW, yes, the EU is a shambles, but I feel strongly it’s a shambles we should be inside not outside. Not being as provident and well-organised as Norway, we missed the moment to go it alone years ago. I have a feeling that the UK (or worse, England) envisaged by the No brigade involves Jam and Jerusalem, and no inconvenient foreigners.
Actually, I’m not sure I can vote anyway, having no permanent address in the UK at the moment. So it’s all irrelevant.
ianess says
The discussion should be about the current state of the EU and its future plans, not what UKIP’s narrow vision is of what constitutes Britishness or Englishness.
The most tedious aspect of political discourse in the UK is Labour’s inability to offer any coherent plans, but, instead, just parrot the line that ‘we wouldn’t do what the Tories are doing’, without offering any concrete alternatives.
At least you admit the Left are exhausted and bereft of ideas, probably because the ones they used to profess have all been discredited following repeated failures.
mikethep says
You really should have been a politician. I didn’t admit the Left is exhausted and bereft of ideas, I admitted that I was. There *is* a difference, you know.
Twang says
The assumption that UKIP supporters are all rabid right wingers is shakey IMHO. The unions have been largely opposed to the EU for decades, especially in the last referendum, and the assumption that the millions who voted UKIP in the last election are all right wing is quite possibly inaccurate. Many of them came from Labour, allegedly. Being anti Europe doesn’t equal left or right in my mind. It equates to being anti Europe, for a variety of reasons, some maybe less savoury than others. But I think we have to get past these simplistic assumptions about motive and look at the facts TBH (not that I am saying you’re being simplistic of course, but the UKIP = bastards = In rationale just seems to be too woolly to me).
SteveT says
I agree with you ianess, Labour has become largely irrelevant in thexociety that the vast majority of British (English?) people want. It is a great shame but no real surprise given our love of tabloid news, reality shows and entertainment that requires no thought or effort from the audience. Labour then defy expectations and elect a leader with fresh ideas which unfortunately are so far away from what the country wants that then makes them even more electable. A strong opposition in any democracy is an essential requirement. We have lost that and now with a leadership leading us into the most important vote in modern politics we have a clear muddle of ideas from the same party. As many Tories want out as want in and Cameron pussies around like a wet fart. He should have had the backbone to campaign on his own beliefs that we are better in Europe. No need for a referendum then. Instead he has muddied the water and judging from the waverers on here it is a common thought in the country.
Moose the Mooche says
The EU is not going to get less centralising, more democratic, less corrupt any more than is the Chinese Communist Party.
The threat of the UK leaving won’t change that.
So I’m fuctifino, frankly.
Lando Cakes says
In!
The EU is far from perfect. Unfortunately, we’ve got no-one to blame but ourselves for much of that. We dithered about joining and therefore lost the opportunity to shape the institutions. Hence the Commission is like the French civil service, rather than the UK one, which is to Europe’s great loss.
But here’s the thing. The right to live and work anywhere in the EU is a great freedom. The ability to negotiate with China, the USA, Russia as the EU is a huge advantage over the same negotiations as a small country.
We are – to coin a phrase – better together.
Twang says
We dithered about joining? What, 50 years ago? We wanted in in the early 60s! The current generation of institutions happened long after de Gaulle, the ungrateful tosser, said “Non”!
Lando Cakes says
We had the opportunity to get in on the ground floor and declined. The 6 went on without us and the rest is history…
Twang says
The institutions which drive us up the wall were created long after we joined. The whole thing is a massive compromise, and probably can’t function any other way (which, of course, is the whole problem).
Twang says
I wouldn’t disagree with your second para though…
Baron Harkonnen says
I haven`t yet read any of the above comments, I will, but I voted to join back in the `70`s (1973?) and I will be voting to stay in.
Why? Because I prefer to be a European rather than British.
ianess says
You’re both, actually, no matter what.
Kaisfatdad says
Geographically of course that’s true. But having a pride in belonging to a broader tradition of European culture and European values is another thing.
On a more practical level, belonging to the EU has made working in other European countries a lot easier. Far less hassle with residence and work permits. This of course cuts both ways.
I came to Sweden pre-EU and a lot of time was spent getting registered at the police station, obtaining the right papers etc. It was a cause of great celebration when I finally got a permanent work permit in my passport.
A small detail perhaps, but for young people who want to try living and working abroad it has made a big difference.
fentonsteve says
I’m married to someone half-Spanish-and-raised-in-France so I’m in.
Professionally speaking, British Standards Institute and EU technical requirements being equivalent – think CE Marking – make exporting product to EU countries a whole lot easier. Outside of Europe, many countries have their own standards and small companies simply can’t afford to go through the expensive legal exercise to sell to those places. I work for a medium-sized company with a few quid, but exporting to (for example) Turkey is simply not feasible.
fentonsteve says
The point I forgot to make above is “test in one EU country, sell in all of them”
JustB says
I’ve no idea what I think about it. I’m definitely British, not European (not quite English though). I am massively frustrated by how nakedly other members get away with flouting the rules (see @gary‘s post above) but then clutch their pearls when we suggest measures which would still see us abiding far more by the spirit of the union than they do.
I think freedom of movement is very easy to believe in when your country is poor and/or not very nice. It’s a bit of a different kettle of fish when you live in a very desirable country (and we do). No question, people want to come here. Living and working here is basically nice, which is why I haven’t emigrated to Romania. It makes me think that countries who are a net importer of fellow Europeans (I’m guessing that’s a club which includes us and Germany and not many others) should be able to slam the doors after a certain point, and if any of the net exporters of population in the EU don’t like that, they can make their countries as desirable as ours or bloody shut up about it.
But on the other hand, I feel like all of that is a case for reform, not exit. But saying *that*, I’ve yet to see a convincing set of numbers which convinces me we’re better or worse off either way.
ernietothecentreoftheearth says
Judging by the Scottish referendum, the chances of voters being presented with a balanced assessment of the pros and cons seem to be nil. It be that, as seemed to be the case with Scottish independence, no really knows what would happen, but no one wants to admit that.
At the moment I find it difficult to summon up much enthusiasm either way, although in my wilder moments I sometimes wonder whether being out of the EU might challenge the country to, I dunno, just try to be something different and innovative. Perhaps figure out what the country is going to “do for a living” in the future. Not exactly a sound premise for radical change, granted, but there it is.
Twang says
I remember my elderly aunt, a pillar of the Clitheroe community, telling me they were no longer allowed to have Christmas lights in the High St as the old buildings weren’t tall enough under EU rules. I told her the French reaction to this would be to mutter “boff” and do it anyway. We are all together too law abiding. We ought to take the piss a bit more when the rules are clearly stupid, like the rest if them do.
mikethep says
Of course it’s entirely possible that your aunt, or indeed the entire Clitheroe community, had got the wrong end of the stick, or reached for a stick where none existed.
We’re always being told, usually by the more hysterical inkies, that the EU has ordained some nonsense or other that turns out to be completely untrue.
IIRC the EU employs a guy in London solely to rebut idiotic tabloid EU stories. A shameful waste of money, obviously.
Twang says
Quite possibly, but it’s just the sort of intrusive busy body shit the EU pokes its nose into, generally driven by commercial lobbyists. An initiative to enforce standard motorbike safety gear and ban aftermarket fittings on bikes was canned after massive protest. It was driven by main dealers of course. And I know this one is real as I had correspondence with my MEP about it. See also maximum volume limits on MP3 players.
Vulpes Vulpes says
Put that banana down this minute! It’s far too curved.
Lodestone of Wrongness says
UK in the EU suits me just fine ( I live in France) but I am well aware of its many shortcomings and, apart from not carrying around wads of ‘foreign’ money, I’m far from convinced that the euro is a good idea.
However I despair when yet another person says “straight bananas”. This is but another Euromyth – this was a misguided (and later amended) attempt to put some order into the market re what constituted Extra Class fruit ie fruit which supermarkets added a premium. File under Latin names for fish & chips and any other nonsense the Daily Mail wants to peddle today
Lodestone of Wrongness says
I give you
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6481969.stm
Leedsboy says
Shouldn’t we judge an organisation by the laws they pass rather than the ones they didn’t? There is an argument that stupid laws kicked into touch show that the organisation is working.
ianess says
Why were they even considered in the first place?
Leedsboy says
Democracy allows crackpots a voice. Good democracy ignores them.*
* Some crackpots may be right.
ianess says
Agree with the sentiment, but I’m talking about the time, energy and resources involved in coming up with fatuous, unworkable and unnecessary regulations. This issue is not confined to the EU alone.
Leedsboy says
I think that is true. I do get a sense that UK politicians use the EU as a smokescreen for the UK systems failings. They’re both crap and need fixing.
Mike_H says
A lot of supposed EU “can’t do that” rulings turn out to be some local government jobsworth completely misinterpreting the REAL EU rulings out of paranoia, or else a lazy bastard public servant finding an excuse to not do things they really ought to be doing.
As stated above, there’s a person employed by the HSE specifically to debunk these myths about what can and cannot be done in the interests of Health and Safety. Our blatantly anti-EU press keeps him pretty busy.
Bingo Little says
Stay in, but make a massive push for reform, and keep pushing until we eventually get what we need.
I don’t see a particularly desirable future for us outside the EU, but there’s no doubting that the current status quo is a gigantic clusterfuck. It would be a good start to address the Federalist tendencies which leads to large, complex decisions being taken based on ideology, rather than as a result of careful consideration of likely practical outputs.
This is probably the most material political/economic question to have faced this country in my lifetime. I agree with those above who suggest it’s far too important to cast your vote based on a dislike of the personalities or even politics of those involved in one lobby or other.
Torley Ponderer says
In ? Out ? NO. Elsewhere Upwards. The EU is part of a global planetary ossified state of mind beloved of grasping Minions Of Set who worship The Greedhead Snorkel one and must be dismantled. It is the unyielding death rattle of the process that was begat by abandoning The Goddess, the rise of agrarianism, city states and their attendant bullshit, the invention of ties, The Moloch Factor, and Starfucks. Some may not agree.
Over & Out – formerly Rob C/Owlsley. I have no control over my current incarnation.
Shiva On Board _/\_ X
GCU Grey Area says
‘Shiva On Board’ – today’s bumper sticker.
In all honesty, I think I’d guessed who you were / had been in a previous life / lives! . .
Rob C says
😉 A Bien Pensant Is For Life, And Not Just Marxmas.
Tiggerlion says
Good to see you back, whoever you are!
Moose the Mooche says
COUGHyurtCOUGH
Twang says
Ace to see you back your Zen-ness
Vulpes Vulpes says
Not sure about “In ? Out ? NO.”
Don’t you mean “Tune in? Drop out? Turn ON.”?
fentonsteve says
In? Out? Shake it all about?
Feedback_File says
I am embarrassingly ignorant of the arguments – although as someone said further up we are unlikely to get any clear non-biased debates on this. My inclination is to stay in but probably more out of fear of otherwise being somehow aligned with the odious BNP and other right wing organisations who are using this as a ‘reputable’ vehicle to disguise more questionable politics underlying prejudices
ianess says
In 1975, as regards the Labour Party, quite a few of those on the far Left (Tony Benn, for example) campaigned against joining.
Lando Cakes says
He wasn’t on the far left then! Benn’s slide into impossibilism came later.
Junglejim says
I don’t believe either side make a resounding case for our votes.
I’m in my 50s & have NEVER had any direct say in being in/out or whether I favour the single market/ minimal political union approach or the move to Greater Federalism approach. Doesn’t seem very democratic, regardless of any predilections I might have.
Since the UK joined its membership has grown from 9 to whatever bloated number it is now, those significant decisions being made on our behalf by the ‘political class’ of the various interested parties, but not us.
Not being able to travel & trade freely & cooperate sensibly on important stuff like organised crime & security seems daft in this day & age, but anybody who doesn’t think the Commission is bent as a 9 Bob note is kidding themselves. I’m not sure it’s ever published a proper balanced budget. It should never be assumed that their interests coincide with most citizens of Europe. They have their own agenda(s) & an exceedingly lucrative gravy train to sustain.
One does not have to line up with Farage & the sceptics or News Corp to hold such views, because as unpalatable as it is, the worst bodies for making the case for the EU & EC is the EU & EC themselves.
The reasons for us rejecting membership of the Euro may have been blinkered, but perhaps inadvertently it may have saved us from being Greece after the ’08 crunch.
I don’t think we’ll succeed in getting anything like the necessary ‘reforms’ if we stay in & I think we could well be buggered if we leave. Not really much of a choice at all.
Bingo Little says
I think that’s an excellent synopsis.
Bingo Little says
But don’t forget that we’ve also now established that the Italians like to mix shit into their ice cream. Could be a real vote-swinger.
ianess says
La Vida e Merda
Baskerville Old Face says
Having had a bit of a think about this tricky one, I don’t really fancy having to get a visa each time I want to visit Europe (holidays, football matches, shopping trips, business trips). We’re in the EU but without having had to accept the Euro as our currency. We’re surrounded by water which appeals to our wish for exclusivity 9and lowers our exposure to mass migration as compared to countries in the European continental landmass. Lots of (non-European) foreign companies who wish to do business in Europe choose to locate in the UK as it’s easier to set up a HQ here and we’re seen as a gateway to the wider European market (that helps create jobs). We’re doing all right being in the EU and I reckon that would change for the worse if we voted to leave. I’m for staying in.
Black Celebration says
I would vote to stay in too. I can’t think of a single productive reason to exit. Will it make us easier to trade with? Will it be easier to get around? Will British businesses become more attractive? Will our economy get stronger? Will we be as influential? I don’t think the answers to those questions are very positive if the UK leaves.
Sitheref2409 says
I’m not eligible to vote (I don’t think, and even if I were, I wouldn’t, morally)
But Britain is in already. I would need to hear a compelling case for change, and that seems absent. Edmund Burke said that if change is not necessary, then no change is necessary, and I think he’s right.
Sewer Robot says
That was just his way of excusing himself from the lightbulb joke thread..
Bingo Little says
Edmund Burke: no stranger to realising too late that you’ve run out of toilet paper.
Rob C says
Homogeneous oblivion. Kali Yuga. Good luck.
Can I have my bees back ?
chiz says
This most important decision of our generation could actually just come down to the date of the referendum. If it’s June, with the Pound still weak and sane voices prevailing, it’ll be stay. If it’s September, after a summer of daily headlines about migrants storming our borders, it’ll be go. This is why we don’t usually let The People make their own decisions.
Fiction Romantic says
Buggered if we stay, buggered if we leave. Should never have joined in the first place. We import more from Europe than we export, they’ll still be courting us even if we do leave. Personally, I think we would have been more prosperous if we’d stayed out. TTIP dispels the myth that we can get a stronger negotiating position by being part of a bigger bloc. In any case, global corporations run the world whatever out stupid politicians both at home and in the EU believe.
God knows why the EU is more popular in Scotland than England since the bastards didn’t want to know us if we had been freed from another stultifying union. Free market yes, EU super state no. Cameron’s “reforms” aren’t even scratching the surface of the problem.
British, European, Scottish, English? No, I’m from the Peoples Republic of Essex. Cry Freedom!
Mike_H says
I’m IN PRINCIPLE in favour of staying in. I’m not happy with the way the EU is currently run.
I reckon the vote will be a close thing when it finally comes and unless Cameron gets some good concessions from the rest of the EU I fear it might just narrowly go the other way. I think this will not be good for Britain (for a start it’ll alienate the Scots even more than they already are) in the short to medium term. In the long term I expect we’ll, as a nation, get by but I can see my imminent retirement (this year, hopefully) and therefore personal prosperity being absolutely buggered-up by an “out” vote.