I really wanted him as England manager, thought he’d rattle some egos. Then after his post Slovakia quote about Rooney and now this, good riddance to be honest. Lost his dream job to greed and stupidity.
I agree Dave. I have no dog in this fight (well, full disclosure – I have a West Highland Terrier called Angus in this fight but still!) yet thought Sam was a genuinely good choice for England. However, I share your misgivings about the Rooney situation. To say, after one game, that Rooney was more qualified than him to say where he should play seemed naive. A very select few footballers have had that privilege – Best, Maradona, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo etc. Even Gareth Bale today. With the best will in the world, Rooney is a very fine footballer and may well be England’s best but he’s just not in that individual genius class.
From a partisan Scottish point of view, I’d like to think that this turmoil offers a chink of light for the upcoming game against the Auld Enemy but ah hae ma doots!
Well I look forward to Gareth Southgate putting him in his place. I don’t know where they go now, I genuinely think going for someone like Beckham might be the answer like Klinsmann with Germany.
As a squad, England are vastly stronger. Obviously, ‘cup style upsets’ are possible but the cold, hard, smart money would be on England winning both legs comfortably. The broken crossbar game in 1977? That was at a time when England were directionless yes, but also, more importantly, an era when Scottish players formed the backbone of most top flight English teams. Dalglish and McQueen the scorers that day IIRC…
Gets a nosebleed when he leaves Bournemouth, so god knows what he’d do if he had to go to Kazakhstan or some such like. He couldn’t hack it at Burnley (scuttled off back to Bournemouth as soon as he could), so at present I don’t think he’s up to the job.
Quite. And when it all disappears into the ether surely with that record he will one day be fondly remembered as ‘one of the greatest England managers’.
That’s a fair point, Leeds. However, it was Keith West who predicated the fellow’s demise back in 1967 (and it’s very likely that John McLaughlin played on the track as a session man).
A selection from the lyrics:
Sam had a nice profession
Well it was really more an obsession…
The village folks they often wonder
Where Glory gets her fire and thunder
Magic things Sam must conjure…
Sam calls to ev’ryone
“Let’s have fun–This could be our last run!”
He didn’t know how right he was
A shock for him was in the post–now!
Read: ‘Your route is uneconomical
Very sorry, we got to be logical
And when the month ends
Glory is redundant’.
Then a strange sound in the night
Made the people wake with fright
A Green Machine with a yellow light
With Sam on top–steams out of sight
Leaving behind puzzled minds
Penny: Where is he off to?
Keith: He doesn’t really know.
Penny: Is he angry?
Keith: No, just very, very upset.
Penny: Will he come back?
Keith: We’ll have to wait and see.
I’m surprised to see you buying into the oft-repeated fallacy that Mahavishnu Orchestra tracks are excessively long, Colin.
This myth seems to have gained traction on the old blog when you were writing your book, at a time when it became briefly fashionable to poke fun at Johnny Mac’s band.
So, I went through the entire MO catalogue and did the maths.
The Mahavishnu Orchestra recorded 7 albums, comprising 55 tracks with a total running time of 305 mins.
That equals an average time of approx. 5.5 mins per track. Not excessively long at all.
Can we pin this information to the FAQs or add to the posting guidelines, perhaps?
Not sure I’ll live long enough to work out the median length, but we’re not talking pop music here. By jazz fusion standards 5.5 mins is not overlong. Certainly not long enough to become a tedious internet meme endlessly repeated by people who have never heard the records.
If we’re talking long, I’d say the Allman Brothers would beat the MO hands down. For example their cover of Donovan’s There Is A Mountain (titled Mountain Jam) covers both sides of an album and clocks in at 34 mins. The Allmans also have several other tracks around the 15-20 minute mark.
See how everything comes round to Donovan eventually?
Well, I did it and the results only confirm my earlier calculations.
Arranging the 55 Mahavishnu tracks in order of length from 0.21 (the shortest) to 21.24 (the longest)* we find the median length to be just 5.07.
*that 21.24 track is actually a bonus live track originating from the 1972 Mar Y Sol festival double album featuring other artists, so not part of the MO catalogue, strictly speaking. The longest official MO track clocks in at 19.23.
Without wishing to create a subset of your tedious internet meme – Relativity and the Recorded Work of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, perhaps – there are those who would say that 5.07 of TMO is equivalent to half an hour of somebody else. Not saying I agree with that, of course.
Wow – thanks for the effort there @johnnyconcheroo !
I can’t believe I am asking this but was the 0.21 track actually a proper track or is it deemed a track by iTunes?
Lots of albums have silly little moments in them often described broadly as interludes or little tricks – like the eternal run-out Beatles track that I forget the name of (if indeed it had one).
There are two MO tracks under one minute (and several under two minutes):
*Sapphire Bullets Of Pure Love (from Birds Of Fire) 0.21
and
Opus 1 (from Visions of the Emerald Beyond) 0.25
I suspect they are both linking tracks. Sapphire Bullets Of Pure Love is a cacophonous din, similar to the climax of A Day in the Life while Opus 1 is an ethereal violin passage. Both are listed on Spotify.
*They Might Be Giants also had a song with this title, but it appears to be unrelated.
I was marking some papers the other day and wanted something on in the background – 2 versions of Dark Star took up an hour – and that is not even thinking about Greyfolded.
On the other hand, “Beer Barrel Polka” on Dick’s Picks vol. 12″ (Providence, Rhode Island, 26 June 1974) weighs in at only one minute and eight seconds.
And they say all Grateful Dead tracks are marathon jams. Hah!
If you look on the Wiki entry for “Mountain Jam”, it says that The Grateful Dead performed a 22:57 minute version on July 28, 1973 at the famed Summer Jam at Watkins Glen.
So Donovan can rightly add “Jam Bands” to his impressive list of achievements.
I can almost hear @kaisfatdad preparing a “longest tracks by big name bands” thread as we speak.
Fantastic! Fat Sam thread turns into (entertaining too) justice for the Orch. And, crucially, for stereotyping and cheap shots in general, let’s hope. Up, Johnny.
Next manager of England? Wasn’t Bruce in the loop before the last decision and would it be embarrassing to pursue him again? Actually, I think he’d take it.
The Median is extremely easy to work out.
What is the length of longest tune? What is the length of the shortest tune?
The median is the mid point between those two values.
I’m stunned and impressed JC – but I fear the facts will float over the heads of those who are convinced the MO played for days without end!
While their album tracks are masterpieces of concision and arrangement (which is, I believe, why they have been recorded by so many tribute acts in so many different styles), in concert there were a few that could stretch to the 30 minute mark – ‘One Word’ especially.
Here’s the magnificent ‘Wild Strings’ bootleg from the early days, April 1972. The four tracks last 13, 13, 15, and 20 minutes – and every minute is bliss!
Replying to your post above Johnny re. the cross pollination of Big Scam and the Mahavishnu Orchestra – I think it’s a perfect.
Although I was a little discombobulated when I woke up this morning and checked in. A bit like falling asleep to Talk Sport and waking up to a particularly esoteric Jazz FM.
Listening to this MO album it’s interesting to note that McLaughlin’s stage announcements are delivered in that strange blissed-out speaking voice he was affecting at the time. Sort of a mix between east European and full-on chilled-out Hare Krishna.
Very odd for a Yorkshire lad. He didn’t speak like that when I saw him last year.
JC – please don’t let so called ‘facts’ get in the way of my in joke with Colin. He plays along, despite the fact that he loathes my stupidity and inaccuracy, and this makes my life somehow brighter.
Just done some checking mind. Wild Strings appears to be 4 songs on the album. If that You Tube link is the whole album at over one hour long, simple maths shows me that MHO songs are bloody long.
My point wasn’t specific to studio albums. I think its the live performance where MHO are without compromise. And people have been known to grow a full beard during an MHO encore.
Yebbut, who but the real fans and Mahavishnu buffs would be familiar with the bootlegs, or have attended the live shows? And the longer the better for them, I suspect.
It was more my ignorance than the (long) running gag that you should loath. I have struggled to listen to a whole MHO song so my opinion is based entirely on preconceived ignorance. :o)
Going for Beckham?!!!!!!!
Might throw a few more exclamation marks in for that one…..
!!!!!!!!
Yes, let’s bring back the incredible success story that was Beckham/England for 15 years. Heady days, we could even get Spandau Ballet to reform for the first match.
Incredible story. Just when you think it can’t get any more sordid, it does!
Looking forward even more to my little rugby match on Saturday.
I hope it’s wet, desperate, inconsequential, and about a millions miles from the Premier League. Good luck, Gareth Southgate.
Agree, but much as I enjoy non league football, the Premier League is one hell of a spectacle. I no longer feel any affinity with the England team ( rugby excepted)
Beckham, yes David Beckham one of my least favourite England footballers. But……. He knows how to handle the press, he’s a popular, likeable chap known around the world and would restore the reputation of the FA. As a figurehead with some proper footballing people alongside him, Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes for example he would probably do it for nothing too. He would undoubtedly get us to Russia and who knows how Goldenballs would do when he got there. It’s ridiculous of course but find a manager who is not only squeaky clean but with an ego big enough to take it and there really aren’t that many candidates.
Up.
I don’t think there’d be any financial sleaze with Beckham.
Not sure he’d want the vicious sniping that seems to come with the job these days though.
Not to pick on you Dave, but this thinking – everywhere – infuriates me.
What are the available data points that lead you to this conclusion? Managerial track record? Excellent coaching? Far seeing tactical and strategic thinker?
A popular fella? Just the kind of profile the tabloids like to take down a peg or two.
he would do it for nothing? Really? Based on what?
No worries Si. My thoughts, much like Sherlock Holmes, are along the lines of once you’ve excluded every other option whatever left must be true however unlikely. No data at all, just a hunch and it’s among friends. The FA have a problem right now and they need someone who can front them, he fits all the criteria as long as he has some proper football people around him.. Who would you go for?
I’m Scottish, so I think Nigel Pearson would be great!
I don’t think there are any international class Managers or Coaches who are English. I’d go for Wenger if he’d take it. Then maybe double down with a younger manager to learn at the feet of the master. Howe, maybe. Southgate.
Here’s one overlooked issue, and where the FA need a good kicking. Where’s the succession plan?
Popularity vs talent is a useful division to keep in mind. Popular choices would almost certainly include Becks, Stuart Pearce, Gary Neville or Mary Berry. Witness the popularity of the appointment of Slaven Billic and Julian Dicks at my club, West Ham. Soo-ins with many of the fans because they wore the claret and blue (if somehwat briefly in Slav’s case). I reckon they have a 3 game window left.
Choosing based on talent or suitability is tricky. I’m not sure that being a good club manager is an indicator of management capability at a national team level. It’s a different requirement – long seasons vs sporadic qualifiers and tournaments and at a club level the good guys develop and coach their players to get the best. At a national level it ought to be more about picking the right combination of players to face each opponent, and setting the team up to play to individual strengths. Too many England managers have either picked players out of form, unfit to play, or out of position (Hodgson did all 3 at the Euros).
Good point about Slaven Bilic. He’s someone who I and a great many other people thought was a coach with all the talents – savvy, passionate, media-friendly etc.
Not looking too good on the cold hard results and performances index at the moment though, it has to be said.
On Dave’s suggestion of Goldenballs – why not? It might be the kind of left field choice that’s required in the current circumstances.
Smart money on Southgate until the end of the qualifiers then Wenger with Southgate or Howe as assistant.
Doubt it. Shape-shifting, that’s all. Allardyce, it has to be said, came across in the footage exactly as it was feared he might. Yet with the vast money now flooding the English game the gravy train is vanishingly unlikely to be derailed any time soon. Sam was merely a very obvious old-school ‘victim’.
Fucking idiot. Why people in his position don’t stand up and walk out of the room as soon as something like that is suggested is beyond me. Oh, yes! Because they are fucking idiots. I hope the Telegraph feels pleased with itself. Wankers.
Breaking news…..8 Premier League managers received bungs in recent years.
Should be interesting/heart-breaking.
It’ll probably be on the 10 o’clock news.
No from me. I don’t like stings generally. Invariably I find it hard to see the public interest. Irrationally. In principle it’s good to root out corruption. I just don’t like it.
Fair do’s. I have sympathy with him in the sense that he’s undoubtedly far from alone in his ideas or practices and for the fact that he’s fucked up the job of his life. The same could, of course, be said of many a misdemeanour of public life.
With Sam’s reputation for avoiding relegation, there’ll be another PL job along soon – even if two of the current likely clubs would mean a return. (Hey, maybe he realized what a terrible job it is, and saw a way out – but obviously not. Cock-up over conspiracy every time.)
Like Dave, I thought he might prove to be a good appointment until the Slovakia game and all that reverence for Rooney. Will Southgate take the opportunity to shake things up a bit? Probably not, if he wants to keep the U21 job.
When he was appointed, I saw the following on a chat board
‘ Now there’s a man who’s not afraid to eat a packet of crisps while taking a shit’
No further comments are needed, really.
Why anyone feels any “sympathy” for Allardyce is mystifying. I felt he was the wrong appointment for footballing reasons. Football’s equivalent of Brexit. A step backward rather than forward.
And so it has proved. All the culture of bungs, backhanders and “is there a drink in it for me?” back with a vengeance. Luxury hotels rather than Watford Gap Services may be the setting and infinitely more money involved, but top level football still plays out like an episode of Minder.
So sympathy for a vain, arrogant, grasping, disrespectful and duplicitous man? Not here.
Bumptious arrogant sod – good riddance. To moan about the media is missing the point, he has been revealed to be a man of poor judgement, avaricious and unpleasant about his predecessor (criticise him for this managerial failures by all means, but his minor speech impediment – unpleasant), I do wonder about all this “by mutual consent”, does nobody ever get sacked in football and will his contract be paid up in full as happens with other managerial sackings ? If his presence as the England manager is inappropriate, wouldn’t the same apply to any other managerial job in England ?
I think ‘by mutual consent’ usually means ‘we’re going to sack you, but negotiate a reasonable pay-off and we’ll say you walked voluntarily’.
I’m reminded of wee Gordy Strachan. His tenure at Boro was an absolute disaster, but when he was sacked, he refused to take any pay-off at all, on the basis that he knew it hadn’t worked out so he didn’t deserve anything.
I’m a Liverpool fan, so it may surprise you that I say Wenger. His contract is up in the summer, he knows English football, he knows how to get teams to play attractive football, he can manage big eogs – not so great on the winning things side but still way better than any England manager apart from Sir Alf. Presumably he doesn’t live all that far from Wembly either
I think the England manager role should be handled by referendums (referenda?). I’ve yet to meet a die-hard football fan who didn’t know more than your average manager, so with the magic of the internet, it shouldn’t be hard for teams to be chosen in advance of games, by those who know. Not sure how you get round coaching per se, but I’m sure there’s a way.
Well, Sam’s lasted twice as long in post as Pope John Paul I. When Paul VI died, people suggested Dave Allen – who did a nice line in ‘pope’ sketches – for the post. When Paul’s successor John Paul I died, the cry went up ‘this time, Pope Dave, surely’.
It’s interesting to hear Sam saying ‘entrapment has won’ today. There is deceit from the journalists, of course, and generally such an elaborate sting could be justified if the target is a lot bigger than Big Sam. I’d say the problem here is equal parts entrapment, vanity and booze.
Entrapment, to my mind, is inciting someone to do something that they would not otherwise do.
The Telegraph has been very clear that they have been working on prima facie evidence – which to my mind means that they already had something on Allardyce and were reinforcing it.
For the ‘record’ , I’d just like to say fair play to the Guardian for this praise of a rival publication. I trust and hope that they see the wider interest of press freedom as being more important than short-term oneupmanship.
Fraser Nelson has a great piece in the Telegraph on this:
Remember, Allardyce does have alleged previous. He was one of the people named in the Panorama investigation a few years ago. After the show he threatened to sue the BBC, but oddly the lawsuit never arrived…
It should come as no surprise, but it’s worth pointing out that when Big Sam came out of his house to speak to the press, he used the phrase “it was an error of judgement on my behalf”.
This phrase is in common usage of course, but it’s incorrect. It implies that the “error of judgement” was made for Sam by someone else.
The thing about Sam’s exit is, unlike the usual post-tournament soul searching or mutually agreed end of contract freshening up, its timing was entirely decided by when the Telegraph bomb was dropped. This brings into relief the ever changing FOOTSIE index by which contemporary managers operate: if England need a new manager in March, Slaven Bilic is a serious contender, by September the idea is ridiculous; Ranieri is the Faroes-f***ed past it Tinkerman in 2015, in 2016 he’s the twinkle-eyed Italian sophisticate who can transform Journeymen into champions.
This message has been brought to you by unemployable Champions League Semi Finalist David O Leary, Fergie’s Anointed One 2013 and soon to be on the job market David Moyes and Europe’s brightest coaching talent Andres Villas Boas, all of whom at one time occupied jobs where they would have considered the England post, at best, a sideways promotion..
Uncle Wheaty says
I bet they are on the phone to Bournemouth as we speak!
Rigid Digit says
Eddie or ‘Arry ?
(or both)
Uncle Wheaty says
A job share would be the dream ticket!
Bargepole says
£3 million a year and it still wasn’t enough!!
Uncle Wheaty says
He lives in Bolton.
Obviously not as cheap up North as we are lead to believe!
Rigid Digit says
Is he going back to Sunderland in a swap deal for David Moyes?
Reading the story in the Telegraph, it sounds like there may be a sh*t-storm on it’s way
Can I open the Next England Manager Speculation (NEMS) with: Manuel Pellegrini
Dave Ross says
I really wanted him as England manager, thought he’d rattle some egos. Then after his post Slovakia quote about Rooney and now this, good riddance to be honest. Lost his dream job to greed and stupidity.
DougieJ says
I agree Dave. I have no dog in this fight (well, full disclosure – I have a West Highland Terrier called Angus in this fight but still!) yet thought Sam was a genuinely good choice for England. However, I share your misgivings about the Rooney situation. To say, after one game, that Rooney was more qualified than him to say where he should play seemed naive. A very select few footballers have had that privilege – Best, Maradona, Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo etc. Even Gareth Bale today. With the best will in the world, Rooney is a very fine footballer and may well be England’s best but he’s just not in that individual genius class.
From a partisan Scottish point of view, I’d like to think that this turmoil offers a chink of light for the upcoming game against the Auld Enemy but ah hae ma doots!
Dave Ross says
Well I look forward to Gareth Southgate putting him in his place. I don’t know where they go now, I genuinely think going for someone like Beckham might be the answer like Klinsmann with Germany.
Uncle Wheaty says
You will win and the fans will invade the pitch and clamber on the crossbar and break it.
Well in the 1970s you would!
DougieJ says
As a squad, England are vastly stronger. Obviously, ‘cup style upsets’ are possible but the cold, hard, smart money would be on England winning both legs comfortably. The broken crossbar game in 1977? That was at a time when England were directionless yes, but also, more importantly, an era when Scottish players formed the backbone of most top flight English teams. Dalglish and McQueen the scorers that day IIRC…
Leedsboy says
I’m all for Eddie Howe still.
count jim moriarty says
Gets a nosebleed when he leaves Bournemouth, so god knows what he’d do if he had to go to Kazakhstan or some such like. He couldn’t hack it at Burnley (scuttled off back to Bournemouth as soon as he could), so at present I don’t think he’s up to the job.
Kid Dynamite says
Think the OP nails it. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Gatz says
How many other footbal managers can say the left the job with a 100% record?
attackdog says
Quite. And when it all disappears into the ether surely with that record he will one day be fondly remembered as ‘one of the greatest England managers’.
Colin H says
Big scam?
Uncle Wheaty says
Is there an article here?
How my music tastes lead me to do this.
Sam reveals a Prog addiction that lead him to a dark place…just a thought.
Leedsboy says
Big Sam was actually England manager for a shorter time than most MHO songs.
Colin H says
That’s a fair point, Leeds. However, it was Keith West who predicated the fellow’s demise back in 1967 (and it’s very likely that John McLaughlin played on the track as a session man).
A selection from the lyrics:
Sam had a nice profession
Well it was really more an obsession…
The village folks they often wonder
Where Glory gets her fire and thunder
Magic things Sam must conjure…
Sam calls to ev’ryone
“Let’s have fun–This could be our last run!”
He didn’t know how right he was
A shock for him was in the post–now!
Read: ‘Your route is uneconomical
Very sorry, we got to be logical
And when the month ends
Glory is redundant’.
Then a strange sound in the night
Made the people wake with fright
A Green Machine with a yellow light
With Sam on top–steams out of sight
Leaving behind puzzled minds
Penny: Where is he off to?
Keith: He doesn’t really know.
Penny: Is he angry?
Keith: No, just very, very upset.
Penny: Will he come back?
Keith: We’ll have to wait and see.
Johnny Concheroo says
I’m surprised to see you buying into the oft-repeated fallacy that Mahavishnu Orchestra tracks are excessively long, Colin.
This myth seems to have gained traction on the old blog when you were writing your book, at a time when it became briefly fashionable to poke fun at Johnny Mac’s band.
So, I went through the entire MO catalogue and did the maths.
The Mahavishnu Orchestra recorded 7 albums, comprising 55 tracks with a total running time of 305 mins.
That equals an average time of approx. 5.5 mins per track. Not excessively long at all.
Can we pin this information to the FAQs or add to the posting guidelines, perhaps?
Black Celebration says
An average of 5.5 minutes per track? As an average, I would say that is indeed excessively long. It’s nearly three It’s Not Unusals.
If you are able to establish the median length, then that would be a better indicator.
Johnny Concheroo says
Not sure I’ll live long enough to work out the median length, but we’re not talking pop music here. By jazz fusion standards 5.5 mins is not overlong. Certainly not long enough to become a tedious internet meme endlessly repeated by people who have never heard the records.
If we’re talking long, I’d say the Allman Brothers would beat the MO hands down. For example their cover of Donovan’s There Is A Mountain (titled Mountain Jam) covers both sides of an album and clocks in at 34 mins. The Allmans also have several other tracks around the 15-20 minute mark.
See how everything comes round to Donovan eventually?
Mike_H says
Fair’s fair, Johnny. It was all flat around there till Donovan invented mountains, after all.
And jam.
Johnny Concheroo says
…and brothers.
Johnny Concheroo says
Well, I did it and the results only confirm my earlier calculations.
Arranging the 55 Mahavishnu tracks in order of length from 0.21 (the shortest) to 21.24 (the longest)* we find the median length to be just 5.07.
*that 21.24 track is actually a bonus live track originating from the 1972 Mar Y Sol festival double album featuring other artists, so not part of the MO catalogue, strictly speaking. The longest official MO track clocks in at 19.23.
mikethep says
Without wishing to create a subset of your tedious internet meme – Relativity and the Recorded Work of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, perhaps – there are those who would say that 5.07 of TMO is equivalent to half an hour of somebody else. Not saying I agree with that, of course.
Johnny Concheroo says
Ramones fans would almost certainly agree with you there, Mike.
Black Celebration says
Wow – thanks for the effort there @johnnyconcheroo !
I can’t believe I am asking this but was the 0.21 track actually a proper track or is it deemed a track by iTunes?
Lots of albums have silly little moments in them often described broadly as interludes or little tricks – like the eternal run-out Beatles track that I forget the name of (if indeed it had one).
Johnny Concheroo says
There are two MO tracks under one minute (and several under two minutes):
*Sapphire Bullets Of Pure Love (from Birds Of Fire) 0.21
and
Opus 1 (from Visions of the Emerald Beyond) 0.25
I suspect they are both linking tracks. Sapphire Bullets Of Pure Love is a cacophonous din, similar to the climax of A Day in the Life while Opus 1 is an ethereal violin passage. Both are listed on Spotify.
*They Might Be Giants also had a song with this title, but it appears to be unrelated.
Johnny Concheroo says
And apologies to Jimmy and the OP, but this has to be the first time Sam Allardyce and the Mahavishnu Orchestra have come together in the same thread.
Black Celebration says
Thanks for looking into that for me.
NB – where else does a thread about Sam Allardyce somehow turn into a discussion about relatively short Mahavishnu Orchestra songs?
Tiggerlion says
Johnny, your dedication to the cause of music astounds me. I bet Colin wishes he’d hired you as a researcher for his book.
Johnny Concheroo says
Thanks Tiggs.
I could have been the Monica Lewinsky to Colin’s Bill Clinton.
nigelthebald says
*pushes sandwich aside*
paulwright says
I was marking some papers the other day and wanted something on in the background – 2 versions of Dark Star took up an hour – and that is not even thinking about Greyfolded.
duco01 says
On the other hand, “Beer Barrel Polka” on Dick’s Picks vol. 12″ (Providence, Rhode Island, 26 June 1974) weighs in at only one minute and eight seconds.
And they say all Grateful Dead tracks are marathon jams. Hah!
Johnny Concheroo says
If you look on the Wiki entry for “Mountain Jam”, it says that The Grateful Dead performed a 22:57 minute version on July 28, 1973 at the famed Summer Jam at Watkins Glen.
So Donovan can rightly add “Jam Bands” to his impressive list of achievements.
I can almost hear @kaisfatdad preparing a “longest tracks by big name bands” thread as we speak.
Declan says
Fantastic! Fat Sam thread turns into (entertaining too) justice for the Orch. And, crucially, for stereotyping and cheap shots in general, let’s hope. Up, Johnny.
Next manager of England? Wasn’t Bruce in the loop before the last decision and would it be embarrassing to pursue him again? Actually, I think he’d take it.
Carl says
The Median is extremely easy to work out.
What is the length of longest tune? What is the length of the shortest tune?
The median is the mid point between those two values.
Colin H says
I’m stunned and impressed JC – but I fear the facts will float over the heads of those who are convinced the MO played for days without end!
While their album tracks are masterpieces of concision and arrangement (which is, I believe, why they have been recorded by so many tribute acts in so many different styles), in concert there were a few that could stretch to the 30 minute mark – ‘One Word’ especially.
Here’s the magnificent ‘Wild Strings’ bootleg from the early days, April 1972. The four tracks last 13, 13, 15, and 20 minutes – and every minute is bliss!
Johnny Concheroo says
Fantastic quality! If only one knew how to source an audio download of that
Jimmy says
Replying to your post above Johnny re. the cross pollination of Big Scam and the Mahavishnu Orchestra – I think it’s a perfect.
Although I was a little discombobulated when I woke up this morning and checked in. A bit like falling asleep to Talk Sport and waking up to a particularly esoteric Jazz FM.
Johnny Concheroo says
Cheers Jimmy. Didn’t want to derail your thread.
Johnny Concheroo says
Isn’t the internet amazing @colin-h ?
http://i.imgur.com/uxWuftp.jpg
Johnny Concheroo says
Listening to this MO album it’s interesting to note that McLaughlin’s stage announcements are delivered in that strange blissed-out speaking voice he was affecting at the time. Sort of a mix between east European and full-on chilled-out Hare Krishna.
Very odd for a Yorkshire lad. He didn’t speak like that when I saw him last year.
Leedsboy says
JC – please don’t let so called ‘facts’ get in the way of my in joke with Colin. He plays along, despite the fact that he loathes my stupidity and inaccuracy, and this makes my life somehow brighter.
Johnny Concheroo says
Oh, I know LB. Not directed at you, just a bugbear of mine going way back.
Leedsboy says
Just done some checking mind. Wild Strings appears to be 4 songs on the album. If that You Tube link is the whole album at over one hour long, simple maths shows me that MHO songs are bloody long.
Johnny Concheroo says
Ah, but that’s a live bootleg. Their regular studio albums weren’t like that.
Leedsboy says
My point wasn’t specific to studio albums. I think its the live performance where MHO are without compromise. And people have been known to grow a full beard during an MHO encore.
Johnny Concheroo says
Yebbut, who but the real fans and Mahavishnu buffs would be familiar with the bootlegs, or have attended the live shows? And the longer the better for them, I suspect.
Colin H says
I don’t loathe it, Leeds! I think it’s good fun 🙂
Leedsboy says
It was more my ignorance than the (long) running gag that you should loath. I have struggled to listen to a whole MHO song so my opinion is based entirely on preconceived ignorance. :o)
Rigid Digit says
Surely there is not enough free time in anyones life to listen to a whole MHO song
badartdog says
Like you, I haven’t even got time to type out their name in full.
deramdaze says
Going for Beckham?!!!!!!!
Might throw a few more exclamation marks in for that one…..
!!!!!!!!
Yes, let’s bring back the incredible success story that was Beckham/England for 15 years. Heady days, we could even get Spandau Ballet to reform for the first match.
Incredible story. Just when you think it can’t get any more sordid, it does!
Looking forward even more to my little rugby match on Saturday.
I hope it’s wet, desperate, inconsequential, and about a millions miles from the Premier League. Good luck, Gareth Southgate.
Chopmanski says
Blood gate?
Chopmanski says
Bloodgate?
deramdaze says
Happened at the top end of the sport, Harlequins, same problem.
Greed.
I was in no danger of being at that match.
Chopmanski says
Agree, but much as I enjoy non league football, the Premier League is one hell of a spectacle. I no longer feel any affinity with the England team ( rugby excepted)
Dave Ross says
Beckham, yes David Beckham one of my least favourite England footballers. But……. He knows how to handle the press, he’s a popular, likeable chap known around the world and would restore the reputation of the FA. As a figurehead with some proper footballing people alongside him, Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes for example he would probably do it for nothing too. He would undoubtedly get us to Russia and who knows how Goldenballs would do when he got there. It’s ridiculous of course but find a manager who is not only squeaky clean but with an ego big enough to take it and there really aren’t that many candidates.
Mike_H says
Up.
I don’t think there’d be any financial sleaze with Beckham.
Not sure he’d want the vicious sniping that seems to come with the job these days though.
Sitheref2409 says
Not to pick on you Dave, but this thinking – everywhere – infuriates me.
What are the available data points that lead you to this conclusion? Managerial track record? Excellent coaching? Far seeing tactical and strategic thinker?
A popular fella? Just the kind of profile the tabloids like to take down a peg or two.
he would do it for nothing? Really? Based on what?
Dave Ross says
No worries Si. My thoughts, much like Sherlock Holmes, are along the lines of once you’ve excluded every other option whatever left must be true however unlikely. No data at all, just a hunch and it’s among friends. The FA have a problem right now and they need someone who can front them, he fits all the criteria as long as he has some proper football people around him.. Who would you go for?
Sitheref2409 says
I’m Scottish, so I think Nigel Pearson would be great!
I don’t think there are any international class Managers or Coaches who are English. I’d go for Wenger if he’d take it. Then maybe double down with a younger manager to learn at the feet of the master. Howe, maybe. Southgate.
Here’s one overlooked issue, and where the FA need a good kicking. Where’s the succession plan?
fortuneight says
Popularity vs talent is a useful division to keep in mind. Popular choices would almost certainly include Becks, Stuart Pearce, Gary Neville or Mary Berry. Witness the popularity of the appointment of Slaven Billic and Julian Dicks at my club, West Ham. Soo-ins with many of the fans because they wore the claret and blue (if somehwat briefly in Slav’s case). I reckon they have a 3 game window left.
Choosing based on talent or suitability is tricky. I’m not sure that being a good club manager is an indicator of management capability at a national team level. It’s a different requirement – long seasons vs sporadic qualifiers and tournaments and at a club level the good guys develop and coach their players to get the best. At a national level it ought to be more about picking the right combination of players to face each opponent, and setting the team up to play to individual strengths. Too many England managers have either picked players out of form, unfit to play, or out of position (Hodgson did all 3 at the Euros).
DougieJ says
Good point about Slaven Bilic. He’s someone who I and a great many other people thought was a coach with all the talents – savvy, passionate, media-friendly etc.
Not looking too good on the cold hard results and performances index at the moment though, it has to be said.
On Dave’s suggestion of Goldenballs – why not? It might be the kind of left field choice that’s required in the current circumstances.
Smart money on Southgate until the end of the qualifiers then Wenger with Southgate or Howe as assistant.
Happy Harry says
‘Big’ Sam? ‘Pea-brain’ might be more appropriate.
Uncle Wheaty says
“Big greedy git” may also apply.
Think we are seeing the last dinosaurs of 1980/90s football shuffling off here.
In any well run business these days I would assume the Bribery Act and other similar codes relevant to your business are taught.
DougieJ says
Doubt it. Shape-shifting, that’s all. Allardyce, it has to be said, came across in the footage exactly as it was feared he might. Yet with the vast money now flooding the English game the gravy train is vanishingly unlikely to be derailed any time soon. Sam was merely a very obvious old-school ‘victim’.
Twang says
Fucking idiot. Why people in his position don’t stand up and walk out of the room as soon as something like that is suggested is beyond me. Oh, yes! Because they are fucking idiots. I hope the Telegraph feels pleased with itself. Wankers.
deramdaze says
It’s not the Telegraph’s fault, it’s his fault.
Breaking news…..8 Premier League managers received bungs in recent years.
Should be interesting/heart-breaking.
It’ll probably be on the 10 o’clock news.
DougieJ says
Hmmm. Suspect a different view would be taken if it had been the Grauniad who had done the exposing.
Twang says
No from me. I don’t like stings generally. Invariably I find it hard to see the public interest. Irrationally. In principle it’s good to root out corruption. I just don’t like it.
DougieJ says
Fair do’s. I have sympathy with him in the sense that he’s undoubtedly far from alone in his ideas or practices and for the fact that he’s fucked up the job of his life. The same could, of course, be said of many a misdemeanour of public life.
Malc says
With Sam’s reputation for avoiding relegation, there’ll be another PL job along soon – even if two of the current likely clubs would mean a return. (Hey, maybe he realized what a terrible job it is, and saw a way out – but obviously not. Cock-up over conspiracy every time.)
Like Dave, I thought he might prove to be a good appointment until the Slovakia game and all that reverence for Rooney. Will Southgate take the opportunity to shake things up a bit? Probably not, if he wants to keep the U21 job.
anton says
“Lector, si monumentum requiris, circumspice.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch
Junglejim says
When he was appointed, I saw the following on a chat board
‘ Now there’s a man who’s not afraid to eat a packet of crisps while taking a shit’
No further comments are needed, really.
Fin59 says
And lo it came to, er, pass
Fin59 says
Why anyone feels any “sympathy” for Allardyce is mystifying. I felt he was the wrong appointment for footballing reasons. Football’s equivalent of Brexit. A step backward rather than forward.
And so it has proved. All the culture of bungs, backhanders and “is there a drink in it for me?” back with a vengeance. Luxury hotels rather than Watford Gap Services may be the setting and infinitely more money involved, but top level football still plays out like an episode of Minder.
So sympathy for a vain, arrogant, grasping, disrespectful and duplicitous man? Not here.
Dodger Lane says
Bumptious arrogant sod – good riddance. To moan about the media is missing the point, he has been revealed to be a man of poor judgement, avaricious and unpleasant about his predecessor (criticise him for this managerial failures by all means, but his minor speech impediment – unpleasant), I do wonder about all this “by mutual consent”, does nobody ever get sacked in football and will his contract be paid up in full as happens with other managerial sackings ? If his presence as the England manager is inappropriate, wouldn’t the same apply to any other managerial job in England ?
count jim moriarty says
I think ‘by mutual consent’ usually means ‘we’re going to sack you, but negotiate a reasonable pay-off and we’ll say you walked voluntarily’.
I’m reminded of wee Gordy Strachan. His tenure at Boro was an absolute disaster, but when he was sacked, he refused to take any pay-off at all, on the basis that he knew it hadn’t worked out so he didn’t deserve anything.
paulwright says
I’m a Liverpool fan, so it may surprise you that I say Wenger. His contract is up in the summer, he knows English football, he knows how to get teams to play attractive football, he can manage big eogs – not so great on the winning things side but still way better than any England manager apart from Sir Alf. Presumably he doesn’t live all that far from Wembly either
Southgate till the summer, than Arsene I say.
Leedsboy says
I’m ok with this. Well, apart from the Southgate bit. But we might get away with it as the group is not the toughest ever*.
* this will come back to haunt me.
policybloke says
I think the England manager role should be handled by referendums (referenda?). I’ve yet to meet a die-hard football fan who didn’t know more than your average manager, so with the magic of the internet, it shouldn’t be hard for teams to be chosen in advance of games, by those who know. Not sure how you get round coaching per se, but I’m sure there’s a way.
fortuneight says
I think you are onto something. All coaching could be retrospectively delivered on Facebook after each match.
GCU Grey Area says
Well, Sam’s lasted twice as long in post as Pope John Paul I. When Paul VI died, people suggested Dave Allen – who did a nice line in ‘pope’ sketches – for the post. When Paul’s successor John Paul I died, the cry went up ‘this time, Pope Dave, surely’.
This time. . .
http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t449/GCU_Grey_Area/ronmanager_zps4l1jjdm5.jpg
chiz says
It’s interesting to hear Sam saying ‘entrapment has won’ today. There is deceit from the journalists, of course, and generally such an elaborate sting could be justified if the target is a lot bigger than Big Sam. I’d say the problem here is equal parts entrapment, vanity and booze.
Sitheref2409 says
Disagree a bit.
Entrapment, to my mind, is inciting someone to do something that they would not otherwise do.
The Telegraph has been very clear that they have been working on prima facie evidence – which to my mind means that they already had something on Allardyce and were reinforcing it.
That isn’t entrapment.
Fin59 says
Prima facie is a lawerly term which means fuck all
Sitheref2409 says
Not my choice:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/sep/27/why-the-daily-telegraphs-sam-allardyce-sting-was-justified
Nonetheless, my undelrying statement holds true. It wasn’t entrapment – he got caught.
DougieJ says
For the ‘record’ , I’d just like to say fair play to the Guardian for this praise of a rival publication. I trust and hope that they see the wider interest of press freedom as being more important than short-term oneupmanship.
Fraser Nelson has a great piece in the Telegraph on this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/29/the-value-of-our-threatened-free-press-is-the-real-sam-allardyce/
count jim moriarty says
Remember, Allardyce does have alleged previous. He was one of the people named in the Panorama investigation a few years ago. After the show he threatened to sue the BBC, but oddly the lawsuit never arrived…
James Taylor says
He’s a fucking idiot. Simple as.
Rigid Digit says
Howe Soon Is Now
‘Urry Up ‘Arry
A Brucie Bonus
Every Claudio Has A Silver Lining
The Right Manuel For The Job
Moyes Boys?
Jurgen-a Get The Job
A selection of some of the imminent Back Page Headlines
Black Celebration says
…or anything by the Wenger Boys
Rigid Digit says
Brendan, Shape ‘Em, Any Way You Want ‘Em
Jorrox says
Ah – you mean some football chap. I thought it was the musical Big Sam and he ain’t no berk! (You may recognise him from the Costello/Toussaint band.)
mikethep says
I lob this in without comment…
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/fa-southgate-can-land-the-job-full-time-7ds52jg06
Johnny Concheroo says
It should come as no surprise, but it’s worth pointing out that when Big Sam came out of his house to speak to the press, he used the phrase “it was an error of judgement on my behalf”.
This phrase is in common usage of course, but it’s incorrect. It implies that the “error of judgement” was made for Sam by someone else.
Dodger Lane says
Mangling the English language – a job as a Sky Sports summariser is in the onion bag then.
Sewer Robot says
The thing about Sam’s exit is, unlike the usual post-tournament soul searching or mutually agreed end of contract freshening up, its timing was entirely decided by when the Telegraph bomb was dropped. This brings into relief the ever changing FOOTSIE index by which contemporary managers operate: if England need a new manager in March, Slaven Bilic is a serious contender, by September the idea is ridiculous; Ranieri is the Faroes-f***ed past it Tinkerman in 2015, in 2016 he’s the twinkle-eyed Italian sophisticate who can transform Journeymen into champions.
This message has been brought to you by unemployable Champions League Semi Finalist David O Leary, Fergie’s Anointed One 2013 and soon to be on the job market David Moyes and Europe’s brightest coaching talent Andres Villas Boas, all of whom at one time occupied jobs where they would have considered the England post, at best, a sideways promotion..
Black Type says
Wow, flashback! Whatever happened to David O’Leary?
Baron Harkonnen says
Big Sam? Nice man but a bit dim.